Everything Over 20 Years Old

 

The May line-up

May's tasting sold out to members within hours of it being announced, and no surprise as Martin had raided the club's stocks for a series of independent bottlings all at least 20 years old.

North British 29yo

We got straight into it with the opening dram, a 29-year-old North British grain whisky. A long-time component of lots of well-known blends, indie bottlings of North British have become more widely seen of late. This particular one came from Fragrant Drops, a brand run by former club member George Keeble, and was matured in a fresh bourbon cask.

This had a very pleasant, creamy nose. That cream was still there on the palate just about, along with a spirity hit. Honey and lemon cough sweets was one suggestion. Rice pudding with honey was another, or vanilla custard (so really going for the full school dinners experience). Not as bitter as some grains, and some felt it was actually too much on the sweet side for them. It's 50.9% and we paid £100.

Tomatin 32yo

Onto Tomatin next, a very large distillery on the Highland/Speyside border. Under Japanese ownership it has gone from a bulk producer of whisky to one that also has a developing brand in its own right, although the bottle we had - a 32-year-old from Skene Scotch Whisky, aged in a bourbon hogshead - harked back to an earlier era of Tomatin production.

Grassy, and almost like a rye on the nose, this one. But the nose promised a bit more than the palate delivered, we felt. We didn't feel this was especially memorable, nor complex and it was a bit of a disappointment for the price tag. We paid £175 from the Aberdeen Whisky Shop, but the RRP on the Skene website has this nearer £400. Admittedly, our view might have been a bit coloured once we realised how expensive it was. It's 44.9%.

Arran 21yo

Whisky three was from Arran, one of the real success stories of Scottish whisky since it was established in the 1990s. Again we were looking back in time to quite an early bottling, a 21-year-old distilled back in 1997. Things could only get better after dram two? Perhaps. This was a sherried expression bottled for the Green Welly Stop, now known as Tyndrum.

This smelt sweet, like Crunchie bars we (ok, I) thought. "Dangerously easy to drink". Not as sweet on the palate but there was a very pleasant dark chocolate, peppermint thing going on, which maybe put it more in After Eights territory. There was a mixture in the room of those who really liked it, and others who found it a little boring. Although billed as full maturation, it tasted more like a sherry finish. We paid £101 and it clocks in at 55.3%.

Tullibardine 29yo

A half-time break to recharge our glasses downstairs at the Seven Oaks, and we were back for three more whiskies.

Local favourite Chorlton Whisky brought us dram four, a 29-year-old Tullibardine distilled in 1993. Known for its good quality water source - Highland Spring is produced next door - Tullibardine is a bit of a landmark on the A9 in Perthshire, well-located if you want to break your journey north.

This bottle was dry and savoury on the nose. Almost like a wholemeal sort of flavour, or Soreen malt loaf, appropriately enough for a Manchester bottler. This again got a slightly mixed response, with some liking it and others feeling it was a bit on the average side. It's 47.5% and we paid £160.

Tormore 30yo

Two Cadenheads bottlings to finish with. Dram five was a 30-year-old Tormore, distilled in 1988 and a combination of three bourbon hogsheads. Recently taken over by Elixir Distillers, owned by the Singh brothers of Whisky Exchange fame, it'll be interesting to see what Tormore has in store for us in the coming years.

Back to this particular bottle though, and we found it nice and approachable. Not necessarily complex, but certainly nice, although it lacked the 'wow' factor you might have been looking for from something really exceptional. "A beauty" on first taste for some, but it didn't linger as it might have done. But overall, a very positive reception. It's long gone from the official site, but we paid £180 for it. It's 47.9%.

Benrinnes 23yo

For the last dram we stayed in Speyside for a Benrinnes, a distillery usually only seen officially in the Flora and Fauna range. This was a 23-year-old from 1995.

This gave us green apples on the nose, followed by a different sort of appley-taste on the palate. McDonald's apple pie was one suggestion, although a caramel toffee apple was perhaps a slightly classier suggestion. Sharp and fresh, this was delicious. We paid £80 - a bargain we felt - and it's 53.4%.

So to the dram of the night voting and a clear win for - the Benrinnes. It took 14 votes, with the Tormore second and the Arran in third.

Thanks to Martin for putting on yet another excellent tasting, all at the Seven Oaks for their hospitality and to all club members for showing their support once again.

New Year, New Home!

 

The line-up

Our 2025 programme of tastings got off to a bit of a different start for a couple of reasons. The first was a week's delay due to a previous booking at our new venue, meaning our January tasting actually took place on the first Thursday in February.

North British 18yo

But I've already given away the second. After spending most of our decade-plus history at the Britons Protection (longer serving members might recall our earliest days in the Lass O'Gowrie then the Castle, but these memories are understandably hazy), events at the start of January meant Star Pubs/Heineken finally took control of the place following a long battle. Changes afoot there, not least the departure of the whisky stocks that made it such an attractive place for us for so long, meant we were briefly homeless.

In stepped another Manchester landmark, the Seven Oaks in Chinatown. Their upstairs room is an ideal size for us, and so that's where we assembled for Martin to take us through six assorted bottles raided from the club's stocks.

The Holyrood

We started off with a single cask grain, an 18-year-old from North British aged in a refill sherry cask and bottled by Douglas Laing under their Old Particular brand. This had a sort of leather, waxy type vibe about it, the sort of smell you get when buffing up your car (I was taking others' word for this, I'm afraid my poor old Ford has never had a buffing, at least not from me). On the palate we got some toffee at the end, butterscotch too. Not too vanilla-y, as some grains can be.

This was good, although at our table we weren't quite sure it was worth the £67 we paid for it back in 2022. Others raved it about it though, declaring it "surprisingly good". Other tasting notes included struck matches and sulphur. It was 48.4%.

SMWS Tullibardine

Dram two went to the other end of the age scale, and a very young whisky from Edinburgh's new Holyrood distillery, which says it's the first in the Scottish capital for a century. Set up by Canadians in an old railway building, the distillery has a reputation for experimenting, and has employed an ex-distiller from Macallan to help them realise what they want to achieve.

We weren't so keen on the nose here - cheese and sweaty socks - but it was totally different when you actually drank it. Very creamy and interesting. We'd like to try more of their stuff, but not necessarily this precise expression again. It was 49.8% and cost us £70 including postage.

Arran 16yo

As someone commented on seeing the line-up of bottles at the start of the evening, "it's always a good night when you see one of these," gesturing at the familiar Scotch Malt Whisky Society livery of dram three. This expression - Blindfolds and Pipettes, 28.95 - was a 10-year-old Tullibardine.

This was straightforward and very good, we felt. Understated but chewy. Not especially memorable on the nose but it had a super long aftertaste, with distinct flavours of apple crumble, custard and a honeyed sweetness. There were mixed views on whether adding water did all that much for it. This bottle was £70 for SMWS members and it was 59%.

Aultmore

After a half-time break to recharge our glasses downstairs in our new surroundings, it was back for another trio of whiskies.

And we kicked off part two on the Isle of Arran, with a distillery exclusive 16-year-old single cask from 2022. We weren't quite sure what the cask was, although it could have been Sauternes, or fino - it was certainly very pale for something which had been aged for that long. 

It was very nice all round though, and Arran is a popular distillery among many club members who felt this particular expression helped the liquid shine. It was £95, which was perhaps a little at the top end of what we'd pay for it. The strength was 58%.

Glen Scotia

To another club for whisky five, this time the Cadenhead's Club and a 15-year-old Aultmore, the result of a vatting of several casks. This had an incredible nose and looked great too: it made you (or at least me) instantly want to drink it. 

And indeed, it lived up to expectations. Very nice, with classical old Speyside flavours, including dates and sticky toffee pudding. A great all-rounder and a favourite so far for many in the room. This was £70 and 54.8%.

Martin had a bit of peat lined up for us to finish with. A Glen Scotia bottled for Callander, this was matured in fresh bourbon then PX casks. My notes here indicate that it was billed as heavily peated, but didn't really taste all that peated, indeed I wrote "is it really peated at all?" so clearly this was causing some debate. More of a soft hint of smoke than anything else.

This was really delicious though. That hint of smoke brought to mind smoky bacon and Frazzles. "Stunning" and "terrific" were among the comments. Incredible value too, as we paid £59 for it back in 2021. It was 52.9%.

That brought us to the dram of the night voting, and despite a strong challenge from the Glen Scotia, the Cadenhead's Club Aultmore got the most votes with 13. In third place was the Arran.

Thanks to Martin for putting together our new home and this great line up of drams, and to all at the Seven Oaks for giving us such a warm welcome!

Grain Whisky Night

 

Six grain whiskies for us to try

Grain whisky is sometimes seen as a bit of a poor relation in the whisky world. But there's no real reason why that should be so. The label 'grain whisky' simply means using some grains other than malted barley as part of the whisky making process, and far from just padding out the good stuff with some inferior product, it can lead to some quality bottlings and great value drams.

Fercullen 10yo

And so for our April tasting, we had six grain whiskies to get stuck into courtesy of Martin. We started with a whiskey rather than a whisky, and something from Fercullen. It has been making whiskey at its Powerscourt distillery in Wicklow since 2018, but given we had a 10-year-old in our hands we think this must have come from the ubiquitous Cooley's.

This was floral on the nose and we got a lot of peach. "Very peachy all round". In fact, the finish more or less went away except for the peach. So it's certainly one to try if you like peaches. Further comments suggested this was a perfect breakfast whiskey and was in fact "the best first dram in ages." The bottling was white oak aged then finished in bourbon. It was 40% and we paid £60.

Bernheim 7yo

Dram two was another whiskey, albeit from a bit further west. This was a wheat whiskey from the Heaven Hill distillery, bottled under the Bernheim Original brand. It was a seven-year-old, and it had a little bit of corn and barley in there along with the wheat.

Initial tasting notes here were liquorice, herbs and spices. Aniseed and cola cubes came next. This was not universally popular, and some drinkers felt it was a bit on the sweet side for their taste. Others thought it was not bad but just suffered in comparison with the opener. Nice to try a wheat whiskey all the same. This was 45% and cost £78.

Circumstance 3yo

To England for the third whisky and our old friends from Circumstance, who did a remote tasting with us during Covid. They've set out their point of difference in the spirits market by using unusual yeasts, including a saison wheat beer yeast. We were trying a three-year-old, which had been matured in ex-bourbon casks.

This was sweet upfront with pear drops and banana sweets. A bit like those little fruit salad chews. Felt a bit rum like for some, and others thought it had a bit of a non-whisky or even slightly synthetic vibe about it. The yeast was certainly there in the beer-like mouthfeel. A bit light perhaps, and also trying to do a lot in a single drink. Lively and interesting and unlike other whiskies most of us have tried before. It was 46% and we paid £60.

Master of Malt's own

After a half-time break and a chance to refill our beer glasses downstairs at the Britons Protection, we were into something far older for the fourth whisky. From the Atom Labs offshoot of leading online booze retailer Master of Malt, this was Butterscotch & Vanilla & Toast & a Generation, part of their series of similarly-named whiskies with cool minimalist labels. This particular bottling was a 30yo blend of grains, probably from the North British and Invergordon distilleries.

It certainly tasted mature. Not light at all, and there was plenty to go at. Barbecue was one tasting note, creme brulee another. Waxy on the nose and we definitely did get the butterscotch. At £65, this was very good value for a 30yo whisky. But on the other hand, at just 40% some drinkers felt it was a little under-powered, and resolved to try the higher ABV cask strength version which retails for a bit more.

Electric Coo 26yo

More North British in dram number five, which was something of a curiosity. Electric Coo was the brand name, and it ended up with us as part of a crowdfunder for David Stirk, a whisky expert who was writing a book about independent distilleries. If you contributed you got a bottle, and so here it was, a 26-year-old.

This had a bit of an acidic tang to it. In fact it was "brutal" suggested someone, in the sense it was very strong and big tasting, and felt stronger than the 50% on the label. Still some sweetness in there, but also a tannin mouthfeel thought some in the room. A bit of a split room in the end, but more than one person was desperate for another drop having finished theirs. The indicative value on it was £95.

Loch Lomond

For our last whisky of the evening, we went to Loch Lomond via the Southport Whisky Club, which bottled this particular expression. Rather than a grain whisky, this was really a single malt in all but name, but because it was distilled using Coffey stills it can't technically be called a malt. This was a chunky old peated cask strength dram, at 61.3%.

And didn't it taste like it. "My word this is strong" I've written down in my notes, and that sums it up pretty well. Very fruit too, with grapefruit prominent on the palate. There were mixed views in the room on whether it improved with water. Some found it a bit much all round. But, as ever for a big peat monster, it had its supporters in the club too!

We ran dram of the night a bit differently, giving everyone two votes instead of one. And would you believe it, we ended up with a very rare win for the opening dram of the night. The Fercullen picked up 17 votes, with the Loch Lomond second and the Electric Coo third. But all the whiskies got some votes, again emphasising what a good selection we had. Thanks to Martin for providing it, for all club members and guests for getting stuck in and drinking them, and to all at the Britons for hosting us yet again.

Battle of the Blends

The line-up of seven blends 

For June's tasting we did something we do all-to-rarely at whisky club, and took a proper dip into the market of blends. Club chairman Adam took everyone through the most expensive core range blend from the owners of each of Scotland's seven grain distilleries, Girvan, Loch Lomond, Strathclyde, Starlaw, North British, Cameronbridge and Invergordon.

In the almost decade-long history of the club, only five percent of the whiskies we had ever tried as tastings have been blends, so it seemed like a good opportunity to redress that a little and see what was on offer. Adam asked everyone to try these blind and see if we felt what was in the glasses offered decent value.

We began with Girvan, and the Grants Triple Wood. Buttery with biscuits on the nose, more butter on the palate along with a sweetness and a certain prickly quality as well. It's 40% and is usually available for about £17.

Next it was on to the bonnie banks of Loch Lomond, and a taste of High Commissioner, a brand that sells well overseas in addition to domestically (it remains the fifth biggest blend in the UK market, although that's down a bit from where it once was). It's unremarkable on the nose, a bit of pear drops perhaps, but overall a little bit thin and watery - we weren't especially impressed. It's 40% and £15.

Strathclyde next, owned by Pernod Ricard, and the 21yo Signature Blend from the Royal Salute brand. Musty with parma violets on the nose. Taste dominated rather by wood. Although it was certainly smooth, much smoother than the previous two drams. As well it might be though, it's a whopping £125 (we thought 20 quid tops). It's 40% again.

French drinks group Martiniquaise owns Starlaw, and we had a bottle of Label 5 Classic Black. A new name on many of us but it's the eighth biggest selling Scotch globally. For the nose we got Scampi Fries and prawn cocktail crisps sort of smushed together with fondant icing. Then on the palate, buttercream and parma violets again. It's 40% and £21.

We were on familiar territory with dram number five, from Edrington Group, owners of the North British distillery, it was a bottle of Famous Grouse. Bit oily and biscuity on the nose, this. Buttery toffee taste and very smooth again, with a hint of Rich Tea biscuits. It's £16 and 40%.

Cameronbridge is owned by Diageo, and one of their best known brands is Johnnie Walker. So we had a bottle of JW Blue. Slightly smoky, a bit sickly. As someone suggested, "the market for this is people who buy solid gold bath taps". It's £155 and 40% - again, not great value by any stretch.

Which brought us to the final dram of the night, Invergordon's Filipino owner Emperador and their Whyte and Mackay brand. We had a bottle of the Triple Matured. Cupcake, sponge and buttercream, we thought. It's £19 and, as is standard for blends, was 40%.

For dram of the night, everyone was asked to score out of ten as they went along, and the Johnnie Walker just edged ahead of the Whyte and Mackay and Royal Salute - although the Royal Salute had most 'top' votes overall.

Thanks to Adam for putting on the tasting and especially David for his extensive notes (I wasn't there so am relying on these for this blogpost!).

Against The Grain: A Grain Whisky Special

The grain whisky line up

For our tasting in August, we looked at one of the more forgotten areas of Scottish whisky: grain whisky. Simply put, grain whisky refers to any whisky made in part from grains which aren't malted barley, and can include grains such as corn, wheat, maize and rye.

Holyrood

We started off with something from the new Holyrood distillery in Edinburgh, the Scottish capital's first new opening in a century. In fact, what we were drinking was not actually produced there, as it's only been up and running since 2019, but was instead called Sweet Single Grain, bottled under licence using the name 'Holyrood Spirits Merchants' although we don't know where the spirit itself was produced.

It smelt nice, with a good nose all round. Something distinctive in the aftertaste, but we couldn't quite place it at first, although there was a shout for butterscotch. Coats your mouth nicely. As someone said: "not all that much to say about it, but it's lovely." From an AHC - alligator heavy char - cask, a fact which might explain the sweetness we all got. This was 46% and was a very reasonable £39.50.

Bramble Whisky Co

Onto dram number two and one of the biggest grain distilleries in Scotland, the North British. Jointly owned by Diageo and Edrington Group, it has an annual output of about 12 million litres, most of which ends up in a variety of well-known blends.

This particular bottle was from a small indie, the Bramble Whisky Company, associated with a local bar. It was four-and-a-half years old, a virgin oak single cask and, like the first bottle, we got ours online from Royal Mile Whiskies. It had plenty going on. We got fruitcake, root liqourice, and a generally quite earthy flavour. Interesting, different, enjoyable, and certainly unusual. One drinker asked whether it was aged in Listerine barrels, although others felt it was a bit on the sickly side. It's £57 and 46%.

Invergordon

We were off next to another big old grain distillery. This time it was Invergordon, today part of Whyte and Mackay. And in a bit of a surprise, we soon learned that we had in our hands the oldest whisky ever tasted as part of a club event. It was a bottling of a whisky distilled back in 1972, making it a 48-year-old when it finally went into the bottle: a rarity for many of us members to have a dram older than them! It was the work of another independent bottler, this time Thompson Brothers.

Pear drops on the nose here. Vanilla, caramel and then a bit of fruit. Tropical fruit in fact, like pineapple or even peaches. Some thought it had a bit of a 'meh' finish to it, but others felt it improved after a few sips. A touch spicy maybe, thought someone. Although a good dram, we probably wouldn't pay the £270 price tag again! It was 42%.

Port Dundas

Port Dundas in Glasgow used to be another big name in grain distilling, until the distillery was closed and demolished a decade ago, as owner Diageo looked to consolidate its grain output at Cameronbridge (more of which in a moment). Adam had chosen for us one of the later bottlings from the distillery, a 2009 10-year-old under the Cooper's Choice name, a mixture of American oak and Martinique rum casks.

And very nice it was too.  Very pleasant and memorable was the consensus, along with "grassy" and "earthy". With water in it became really good, perhaps indicating it was bottled a little too strong. And by too strong, we mean a very chunky 60.5%. At £57 though, we felt this was a bit of a bargain, a more than reasonable price for something like this.

Cameronbridge

Port Dundas may have gone but Cameronbridge endures. Located in East Fife, it's the largest grain distillery in Europe, producing 200 litres of the good stuff every minute. And we had another older whisky to try, this time a 36-year-old bottled by Bartels Whisky under the name His Excellency. Indeed, it was a cask strength version of a bottle we'd had before.

This had the nicest nose so far. Caramel, chewy, toffee apple, even fizzy cider. A bit rummy on the nose, we got some sweetness and molasses. Chewy - that word again - when tasted, a bit of water brought out more of the flavour. The finish was perhaps a little harsh, but was also thick and oily. For plenty of members, the clear favourite so far. It was 57.9% and cost us £78.

Loch Lomond

To finish, we took the high road, or perhaps by this time of the night it was more like the low road, to Loch Lomond. The distillery is known for being self-sufficient, in so far as it has its own malt and grain distillery. And we were trying a peated version of the Loch Lomond Single Grain.

This had an interesting nose. Irn Bru, fruits and spices, and just a bit peaty or smoky. A rabbit out of the hat suggested someone, and quite a few really enjoyed this. It's unusual to have a peaty grain, and on this occasion we were drinking what was effectively a single malt, but which was not distilled in the batch process but was instead made using the continuous Coffey still method so technically doesn't count as a single malt under Scottish rules. More's the pity, as not only was this a very good whisky, it was a total bargain at just £26. It's 46%.

And so we came to the dram of the night voting. And in an unprecedented development, we had a five-way tie! All the drams from two to six got the same number of votes, so we left it at that rather than trying to force a winner.

Thanks to all members for taking part via Zoom once again, and to Adam for selecting and running us through another great selection of drams!

Follow The Grain

This month's line-up.

Martin took the helm of September's tasting at Manchester Whisky Club. We were in the smaller of the two upstairs rooms at the Briton's, giving way to a theatre performance in the larger space (when this happened once before it was because of a double booking with the railway union's Christmas party), but there was just about enough space for all of us to tackle the line-up of six grain whiskies.

Just the 96.4%

There were actually seven drinks apiece though, the first this little drop of clear liquid. It's neutral grain alcohol and came in at a mere 96.4%. Given the strength, it was actually surprisingly smooth, although most drinkers took Martin's advice of putting their fingers in for a small taste. In the interests of research, your correspondent necked his one though. Either way, it was certainly a lively way to get the evening started.

While grain whisky is considerably less fashionable than single malt, there are some interesting bottlings out there that can provide good value for money. Grain whisky is typically used as the backbone of blends, but increasingly distilleries and independent bottlers alike are putting out grains in their own right, and that's what the evening was all about.

The Malt 'n Rye.

We started off in Norfolk with club favourites the English Whisky Company, and their bourbon finished Malt 'n Rye. This started off smoothly but there was a bit of a sharp finish that was too harsh for a lot of us. Overall it was a bit spirity, too. It was a 45% whisky and cost £45, but with the bottling just 50cl rather than the standard 70cl, this doesn't represent the value offered by some of the other grains on the market.

The Chita.

An immediate contrast to that came in the form of dram number two, The Chita from Japan's Suntory. Previously only available in the travel retail market, this 43% whisky is now on general sale at about £50. A no age statement whisky, this was smooth, buttery, sweet and nice, very pleasant all round in fact. One well worth investing in, whether you're passing through the airport nor not.

We made it back to Scotland for the third whisky of the evening, and a drink from what was, at one time, the largest distillery in the whole country, Port Dundas. A former powerhouse of grain production, Diageo eventually closed it in 2011 to avoid splashing out on a pricey upgrade.

North Star Port Dundas 12yo.

This particular bottling came from North Star, a 12yo available for just £40 despite the strength of 58.8%. Considering that high ABV it was surprisingly creamy, almost with a hint of cream soda in fact. Smooth at the end too, with others noting a certain malty or biscuity taste as well. "It could really warm the cockles of your heart" said one particular fan. A bit of water took the spice out of it a bit, though.

After the half-time break (and some of David's sensational baked goods) it was back to North Star for dram number four, from another of the big grain distilleries, the North British.

North Star North British 21yo

It's the last distillery in Edinburgh and remains one of the largest of any kind in Scotland. As with Port Dundas, you're bound to have had some in one well-known blended brand or another at some point, although bottlings under the North British name are much rarer.

This was a 21yo from a single cask, costing £68 and with a strength of 52.9%. "Posh on the nose and posh in the taste" was an early comment. And that price tag was quickly judged an absolute bargain. It has a distinctive, thick feeling in the mouth, almost like treacle. One of the official tasting notes mentioned rum and raisin, and that certainly rang a few bells too. Great stuff.

Whiskybroker Cambus 25yo

For the last two whiskies of the night we were treated to a couple of bottles from Martin's own collection, from one of the club's favourite independent bottlers, Whiskybroker. Because Martin picked them up some time ago neither is available anymore - bottlings on Whiskybroker tend to go quickly, and the advice is to follow him on social media for updates as to when new ones are going live.

Anyway, dram number five took us to the now-silent Cambus distillery near Alloa in the 'wee county' of Clackmannanshire. This was a first fill sherry 25yo, at 52.7% which, in typical Whiskybroker style, was a very reasonably priced £70. A "totally different" and "very sherried" dram, this was flavoursome and again quite raisiny. The sherry monsters in the room, of which there are many at the club, loved this one, while others thought the flavours were just a bit overpowering.

Whiskybroker Invergordon 43yo

And we stuck with Whiskybroker for an even rarer treat to end the evening, an Invergordon that was bottled last year at the ripe old age of 43. Filled in July 1973 when Slade were at number 1 with Skweeze Me Pleeze Me, this was older than many if not most of the people around the table, and was 49.7% with an original price of just £99. Tropical fruit was an obvious early tasting note, like the old style Opal Fruits in fact (we're of an age where I think we will probably never get round to calling them Starburst). A lovely drink, really buttery again, great on the nose with lots of layers on the palate. A triumph!

It was no surprise that the Invergordon took the dram of the night voting, but it only defeated dram four, the North British, by a single vote, while a couple of the other drams had their supporters too.

So, the end of another great tasting, and thanks in particular go to Martin for the guide through the world of grain whiskies, and in particular letting us into the dark recesses of his own collection for some really special stuff at the end.